He fails to see that

a) “the orthodox medical model of medicine” is nothing else than to “try out whether something does what you think it does”. Just plain old common sense, not restricted to medicine at all.

b) that the concept of a trial does not enforce the way some medicine or treatment is developed, but merely ensures that the claimed results are rigorously and independently tested. Everybody is free to dream up inventions as he sees fit – as long as the results stand up to scrutiny.

This is where homeopathy fails.

Daniel

Yes, the goal posts do appear to be shifting…

My argument is a response to your patronising article, which suggested that practitioners of non-orthodox therapies (and their patients) hold an irrational, religious-like belief in the efficacy of their particular therapy.

That may be so. However, as I have repeatedly pointed out, many medical scientists (yourself included) hold a similar irrational belief that the orthodox medical model is self-evidently the only true model for medicine. In other words, nothing can call itself a ‘medicine’ unless it is developed or has evolved within the limits created by the orthodox model of medicine. This is a dogma of the religious type.

I am not suggesting that orthodox medicine is based on a single idea or that it is not open to new ideas or innovations. What I am suggesting is that any openness is limited by the boundaries of the model.

Orthodox medicine is nothing more than a model, it is not a monopoly on the truth (whatever that is). Plausibility and evidence are a function of the model, though the high priests of orthodoxy would have us believe otherwise.

Your last response seems to me to be of the ‘my medicine is better than your medicine’ type. No sane non-orthodox practitioner would suggest that their particular therapy could possibly replace orthodox medicine in its entirety – nor do I.

The daft thing is that you are still constructing a straw-man. You are arguing with yourself. So, instead of saying scientific medicine is just one idea, you now say it is many (x,y,z). Where do you think these ‘methods’ come from? They have been agregated over the last century or so as each diagnistic or therapeutic technique has proven safe and effective. Ideas have come from physics, chemistry, botany (yes, drugs from plants), biochemistry, genetics, pshychology and even sociolgy. Scientific medicine is always open to new ideas from wherever thay may come.

Compare and contrast with homeopathy – unchanged in two hundred years. No new ideas, no new insights, no integration with new discoveries.

Can you name one advance in homeopathy that has moved it on as new science has been discovered? And is agreed upon by most homeopaths? So, who is open to new ideas then?

Still spitting feathers?

My argument still stands; all it takes is a little extrapolation to modify it:

Orthodox medical scientists say ‘our medicines, therapies, technologies etc. are developed using xyz methods, therefore all medicines, therapies, technologies etc. must be developed using xyz methods’.

The ‘therefore’ requires a leap of faith that makes you a member of the Church of Orthodox Medicine. If you cannot see it, then you must have some very resistant meme-plexes…

Thank you, once again, for your concern re my mental health.

The funny thing is, now that your error has been pointed out, I bet you will still go on repeating the same old tired arguments.

If you want to debate on this site then stick to debate. Stupidy and abuse will be deleted – for your own good.

There was an argument in there, but perhaps your sense of humour failure caused you to miss it: article one of the Church of Orthodox Medicine?

Furthermore, us paid-up members of the Church of Alt Medicine are very happy with the knowledge accumulated over thousands of years of plant use (what we call empirical evidence of efficacy).

You may believe that experimental trials are the pinnacle of scientific achievement, but it is interesting to observe how the medical establishment chooses and loses its medicines. Firstly, radomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials ’sex-up’ the evidence for the efficacy of a new bioactive chemical. Next, the chemical is approved as a prescription drug. Finally, evidence continues to be gathered about the drug’s harm-benefit through long-term studies, sometimes over decades. We would argue that this end stage is based on the evidence of experience (empirical evidence) and it makes, but more often breaks a drug…

Own up to it: without empirical evidence Orthodox Medicine would just be an elaborate way of killing more people than it already does.

You may think we lack scientific fibre, but clearly we pray to different gods.

The mathematics of statistics are abstract objects which can be shown to be absolutely true, within their abstract framework. If you can use this framework to develop an entirely robust methodology for maximising the probability that a homeopathic medicine is effective then this methodology will be absolutely acceptable as a means of testing medical interventions. As it stands, homeopathy has signally failed to propose such a mechanism, and appears to hide behind the argument, “We don’t believe that the RCT method is appropriate to our medicines, therefore we don’t need to test them in a meaningful way”.

I think you might be well served to spend less time attacking Le Canard Noir, and more time rigorously determining the basis for the treatments you support.

You are clearly quite far up your own arse, perhaps too far to read to the following, but here goes anyway…

We know that bioactive chemicals can be used medicinally because of the experimental methods developed by medical science. These methods have been specifically developed to test the effects of single bioactive chemicals on our bodies. Yet, it is one thing to say ‘we have an experimental method that enables us to develop medicines from single bioactive chemicals’, but it is another matter entirely to say, as medical scientists do, ‘therefore, all medicines must be developed using our experimental methods’. This is simply false logic. But it is the first article of dogma in the creed of the Church of Orthodox Medicine.

Yours is a proselytising religion – that is your burden. I see you and Mrs Duck pounding the pavements, knocking on doors and handing out copies of the Big Pharma Watchtower. I appreciate your concern for the state of my soul and the souls of my fellow non-believers. I know you’d like us to join you in pharmaceutical heaven. If only it weren’t for those pesky memes and meme-plexes.

Thanks for putting us on the couch and trying to analyse us, but I don’t think a meme-complex would stand up to an assault from Occam’s razor. I give it at least 10 canards.

Your zealotry (or is it OCD?) is becoming a tad boring. Try getting out more often or some day soon Mrs Duck will run off with Mr Drake…

Up to a point, but in the case of orthodox medicine in particular there seems to be a clear stumbling block in the way.

Unfortunately, when leading academics who have received the best of science education but then choose to disgard both ethics and science by, for example, authoring publications which are then promoted, often very successfully, under the banner of science but which are inaccurate and intended to misinform the majority of phsycians, the public, the regulators etc, it is difficult to conceive how further science education will help, or how the press can possibly become better informed.

A difficult problem.

I wonder if you have any thoughts about why prosecution consistently proves to fail in effectively dealing with fraud and scientific misconduct, in the pharmaceutical industry at any rate.

If a company promotes a drug or an alternative treatment and suppresses side effects observed in their clinical trials, (taking as a rather outstanding example, drug-induced suicidality or homicidality as in data suppressed by Pfizer, Lilly and GSK on certain blockbuster drugs) and as a result those drugs, or homeopathic remedies should that occur, cause the deaths of members of the public, would it be more realistic to seek prosecution of responsible indviduals with perhaps prison sentences as would be imposed on ordinary members of society?

Or should we continue on a course that has clearly failed to date by imposing relatively ’soft’ monetary penalties on the company as a whole which, generally, is paid by the shareholders and fails to make any temporary or lasting impression on corporations or individuals within it who commit the criminal acts?

What would you suggest as a solution to halting quackery in orthodox and alternative medicine?