Comments on: A Simple Challenge to Homeopaths http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html Experiments and Thoughts on Quackery, Health Beliefs and Pseudoscience Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:47:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Ade http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16746 Ade Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:53:53 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16746 It's odd that they won't take the test. If anyone truly believes in homeopathy, rather than placebo, surely they'd want to show the world those results? Evidence would only help their cause, help them financially, and help cure people if true. All good. So the avoidance, and general anger about being questioned suggests they don't believe it either. But that would lead us to only one conclusion - money. It’s odd that they won’t take the test. If anyone truly believes in homeopathy, rather than placebo, surely they’d want to show the world those results? Evidence would only help their cause, help them financially, and help cure people if true. All good.

So the avoidance, and general anger about being questioned suggests they don’t believe it either. But that would lead us to only one conclusion – money.

]]> By: DrRobert http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16600 DrRobert Sat, 03 Dec 2011 12:47:50 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16600 Idea: I'd love to go to a factory where they are manufacturing this crap. Are there any stories out there of people touring homeopathy remedy factories? Idea:

I’d love to go to a factory where they are manufacturing this crap. Are there any stories out there of people touring homeopathy remedy factories?

]]> By: Badly Shaved Monkey http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16205 Badly Shaved Monkey Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:23:41 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16205 "So, to use your example of coffee, if coffee in material doses causes healthy volunteers to stay awake, then a successful demonstration of this basic principle of homoeopathy would be material doses of caffeine curing insomnia." The utter stupidity of homeopathy can still make my jaw drop. As I have said many times, one of the most dangerous threats to homeopathy is to take its claims exactly at face value. I think homeopaths can only sustain their belief precisely by not thinking about their art very carefully. “So, to use your example of coffee, if coffee in material doses causes healthy volunteers to stay awake, then a successful demonstration of this basic principle of homoeopathy would be material doses of caffeine curing insomnia.”

The utter stupidity of homeopathy can still make my jaw drop.

As I have said many times, one of the most dangerous threats to homeopathy is to take its claims exactly at face value. I think homeopaths can only sustain their belief precisely by not thinking about their art very carefully.

]]> By: Mojo http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16199 Mojo Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:48:10 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16199 <blockquote>"Arnica, opium, coffee are some of the only remedies that I’ve clearly seen behaving this way – i.e. eliciting strong symptoms in material doses that the diluted remedies supposedly cure." This is not actually a demonstration of a homoeopathic principle, because the "law of similars" doesn't actually state that diluted remedies will cure the same symptoms that material doses cause. It simply states that a remedy can cure a patient suffering from the symptoms that the remedy itself causes in healthy subjects. Hahnemann originally "proved" remedies using material doses, but he also treated his patients with those same material doses (at least, until he figured out that this tended to poison them). Eventually, as well as decreeing that diluted remedies should be used to treat patients, he also prescribed "proving" using 30C remedies (see the <i>Organon</i>, 5th or 6th ed, aphorism 128). He claimed that by using such dilute remedies, "the powers which in their crude state lay hidden, and, as it were, dormant, are developed and roused into activity to an incredible extent". So, to use your example of coffee, if coffee in material doses causes healthy volunteers to stay awake, then a successful demonstration of this basic principle of homoeopathy would be material doses of caffeine curing insomnia.

“Arnica, opium, coffee are some of the only remedies that I’ve clearly seen behaving this way – i.e. eliciting strong symptoms in material doses that the diluted remedies supposedly cure.”

This is not actually a demonstration of a homoeopathic principle, because the “law of similars” doesn’t actually state that diluted remedies will cure the same symptoms that material doses cause. It simply states that a remedy can cure a patient suffering from the symptoms that the remedy itself causes in healthy subjects. Hahnemann originally “proved” remedies using material doses, but he also treated his patients with those same material doses (at least, until he figured out that this tended to poison them). Eventually, as well as decreeing that diluted remedies should be used to treat patients, he also prescribed “proving” using 30C remedies (see the Organon, 5th or 6th ed, aphorism 128). He claimed that by using such dilute remedies, “the powers which in their crude state lay hidden, and, as it were, dormant, are developed and roused into activity to an incredible extent”.

So, to use your example of coffee, if coffee in material doses causes healthy volunteers to stay awake, then a successful demonstration of this basic principle of homoeopathy would be material doses of caffeine curing insomnia.

]]> By: Guido http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16197 Guido Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:04:36 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16197 In fact, the helenalin in Arnica damages capillaries to the point of causing widespread hemorrhage and bruising if absorbed into the systemic circulation. 15+ml of mother tincture are required for this - and the danger of damaging the coronary circulation is high. Arnica, opium, coffee are some of the only remedies that I've clearly seen behaving this way - i.e. eliciting strong symptoms in material doses that the diluted remedies supposedly cure. Haven't tried the canine testes, will leave that one to you. Curiously, other diluted remedies such as Symphytum (comfrey - bone injury) and Hypericum (St. Johnswort - neuropathy) are used diluted for the exact same things that they are used for in material doses. Never quite understood that. And yes, I know I'm missing the point. It's pretty clear that material doses of plants (et al.) do things. In fact, the helenalin in Arnica damages capillaries to the point of causing widespread hemorrhage and bruising if absorbed into the systemic circulation. 15+ml of mother tincture are required for this – and the danger of damaging the coronary circulation is high.
Arnica, opium, coffee are some of the only remedies that I’ve clearly seen behaving this way – i.e. eliciting strong symptoms in material doses that the diluted remedies supposedly cure. Haven’t tried the canine testes, will leave that one to you.
Curiously, other diluted remedies such as Symphytum (comfrey – bone injury) and Hypericum (St. Johnswort – neuropathy) are used diluted for the exact same things that they are used for in material doses. Never quite understood that.
And yes, I know I’m missing the point. It’s pretty clear that material doses of plants (et al.) do things.

]]> By: le canard noir http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16196 le canard noir Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:57:12 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16196 You are quite right but somewhat miss the point I would say. A homeopath could chose undiluted remedies in order to do the test. But then it would be rather a unimpressive test and not worth the effort. However, tests on undiluted remedies might be interesting. Take Arnica and the principle of like cures like. Could undiluted arnica cream rubbed on unbruised skin produce bruises? That would be interesting. Likewise, many homeopathic remedies do not produce symptoms ascribed to them - they are imaginary - you can buy dolphin sonar, mobile phone and canine testes online. Any repeatable demonstration with these remedies would be interesting. You are quite right but somewhat miss the point I would say.

A homeopath could chose undiluted remedies in order to do the test. But then it would be rather a unimpressive test and not worth the effort.

However, tests on undiluted remedies might be interesting. Take Arnica and the principle of like cures like. Could undiluted arnica cream rubbed on unbruised skin produce bruises? That would be interesting. Likewise, many homeopathic remedies do not produce symptoms ascribed to them – they are imaginary – you can buy dolphin sonar, mobile phone and canine testes online. Any repeatable demonstration with these remedies would be interesting.

]]> By: Guido http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16194 Guido Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:31:44 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16194 One could consistently and reliably tell mother, 1x dilutions, and perhaps even 1c and 2x dilutions apart. As you say though, this is only an assessment of organoleptic assay skill. My points in bringing up the question are to a)highlight the idea that homeopathy uses relatively undiluted remedies, such as Calendula and Arnica, fairly often as part of the modality; b)to be completely semantically accurate, the challenge should not say "A trained homeopath selects six homeopathic remedies of any type and strength", as that could include 1x dilutions; c)lots of provings were / are conducted with undiluted remedies (my favorite story is of Hering's proving of Lachesis, the bushmaster snake venom. Insane.) Hahnemann, in the Organon (a thoroughly entertaining read), states the principle that diluted remedies affect the symptoms that undiluted remedies cause in healthy individuals. There is absolutely no way I could tell 30c remedies apart, nevertheless, homeopathy has added a lot to our understanding of the medicinal effects of plants through provings that use undiluted remedies. One could consistently and reliably tell mother, 1x dilutions, and perhaps even 1c and 2x dilutions apart. As you say though, this is only an assessment of organoleptic assay skill.
My points in bringing up the question are to a)highlight the idea that homeopathy uses relatively undiluted remedies, such as Calendula and Arnica, fairly often as part of the modality; b)to be completely semantically accurate, the challenge should not say “A trained homeopath selects six homeopathic remedies of any type and strength”, as that could include 1x dilutions; c)lots of provings were / are conducted with undiluted remedies (my favorite story is of Hering’s proving of Lachesis, the bushmaster snake venom. Insane.)
Hahnemann, in the Organon (a thoroughly entertaining read), states the principle that diluted remedies affect the symptoms that undiluted remedies cause in healthy individuals.
There is absolutely no way I could tell 30c remedies apart, nevertheless, homeopathy has added a lot to our understanding of the medicinal effects of plants through provings that use undiluted remedies.

]]> By: Lecanardnoir http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16193 Lecanardnoir Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:40:56 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16193 There would be nothing particularly magical about telling mother tinctures apart. But i am open to a suggestion if demonstrates a homeopathic principle not predicted by mainstream science? What did you have in mind? There would be nothing particularly magical about telling mother tinctures apart. But i am open to a suggestion if demonstrates a homeopathic principle not predicted by mainstream science? What did you have in mind?

]]> By: Guido http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16192 Guido Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:04:44 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16192 Just checking to make sure that you would not accept the use of mother tinctures for your challenge. Just checking to make sure that you would not accept the use of mother tinctures for your challenge.

]]> By: Le Canard Noir http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16072 Le Canard Noir Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:01:18 +0000 http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2007/12/a-simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html#comment-16072 Well, quite. Well, quite.

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