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	<title>Comments on: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?</title>
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	<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html</link>
	<description>Experiments and Thoughts on Quackery, Health Beliefs and Pseudoscience</description>
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		<title>By: gimpyblog</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5777</link>
		<dc:creator>gimpyblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5777</guid>
		<description>An excellent point LCN but I suspect your argument may be difficult to define legislatively.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think it is a terrible shame that no homeopaths are responding to your posts.  There is no question that &#039;something must be done&#039; but if that something is legislative in nature, and the arguments for this are compelling, then in the interests of fairness homeopaths must be engaged.  If they refuse to take part in this debate then they will be disenfranchised by default.  In an open democracy that is a appalling  but easily avoidable fate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent point LCN but I suspect your argument may be difficult to define legislatively.</p>
<p>I think it is a terrible shame that no homeopaths are responding to your posts.  There is no question that &#8217;something must be done&#8217; but if that something is legislative in nature, and the arguments for this are compelling, then in the interests of fairness homeopaths must be engaged.  If they refuse to take part in this debate then they will be disenfranchised by default.  In an open democracy that is a appalling  but easily avoidable fate.</p>
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		<title>By: le canard noir</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5776</link>
		<dc:creator>le canard noir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5776</guid>
		<description>No need to be too libertarian, gimpy. By joining an organisation like the Society of Homeopaths, you are ostensibly surrendering some of your freedoms to practice in return for an authoritative endorsement of your &#039;skills&#039;. Homeopaths get a pretty good deal though because SoH do not appear to enforce any of their restrictions on practice.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;External regulation may be the only answer as homeopaths, especially, are systematically incompetent. Their paricular beliefs about science, evidence and medicine mean they are incapable of apprasing their own competence and practice and see themselves as being a complete alternative to conventional medicine. Other disciplines do not hold this dual strand of complete delusion and utter arrogance to the same degree, from what I see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No need to be too libertarian, gimpy. By joining an organisation like the Society of Homeopaths, you are ostensibly surrendering some of your freedoms to practice in return for an authoritative endorsement of your &#8217;skills&#8217;. Homeopaths get a pretty good deal though because SoH do not appear to enforce any of their restrictions on practice.</p>
<p>External regulation may be the only answer as homeopaths, especially, are systematically incompetent. Their paricular beliefs about science, evidence and medicine mean they are incapable of apprasing their own competence and practice and see themselves as being a complete alternative to conventional medicine. Other disciplines do not hold this dual strand of complete delusion and utter arrogance to the same degree, from what I see.</p>
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		<title>By: gimpyblog</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5775</link>
		<dc:creator>gimpyblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5775</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The alternative might be top make non-medically qualified alternative medicine practices illegal - as say, NMQP Homeopaths are in France. Is that a curtailment of freedom of speech?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;On the face of it that seems an entirely reasonably suggestion.  However, I suspect the homeopaths would argue &quot;why single out homeopathy for special treatment?&quot;.  What differentiates homeopathy from the acupuncturists, the chiropracters, reiki healers, naturopaths, etc?  Why not insist that all alt-therapies can only be carried out by medically qualified practitioners? Politically untenable perhaps but possibly the only logical solution. But I have to confess doing so would still ruffle my libertarian feathers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The alternative might be top make non-medically qualified alternative medicine practices illegal &#8211; as say, NMQP Homeopaths are in France. Is that a curtailment of freedom of speech?</i><br />On the face of it that seems an entirely reasonably suggestion.  However, I suspect the homeopaths would argue &#8220;why single out homeopathy for special treatment?&#8221;.  What differentiates homeopathy from the acupuncturists, the chiropracters, reiki healers, naturopaths, etc?  Why not insist that all alt-therapies can only be carried out by medically qualified practitioners? Politically untenable perhaps but possibly the only logical solution. But I have to confess doing so would still ruffle my libertarian feathers.</p>
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		<title>By: le canard noir</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5774</link>
		<dc:creator>le canard noir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5774</guid>
		<description>Good points quacknet and gimpy. I am not trying to limit freedom of speech. If a homeopath wants to bad mouth &#039;allopaths&#039; on a bulletin board then fine. But in the context of a regulated activity then I think it is fair to state what sort of behaviours are acceptable. We are talking about a fee-earning consulatation here.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The FSA example is a good one. A financial advisor cannot make a initial disclosure to say that they are acting in the capacity as &#039;execution only&#039; and then offer advice on what mortgage to buy. This is not limiting their freedom of speech, but ensuring their actions are transparent and consistent. I see no problem with insisting that alternative medicine practitioners act consistently with their disclosures. The alternative might be top make non-medically qualified alternative medicine practices illegal - as say, NMQP Homeopaths are in France. Is that a curtailment of freedom of speech?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points quacknet and gimpy. I am not trying to limit freedom of speech. If a homeopath wants to bad mouth &#8216;allopaths&#8217; on a bulletin board then fine. But in the context of a regulated activity then I think it is fair to state what sort of behaviours are acceptable. We are talking about a fee-earning consulatation here.</p>
<p>The FSA example is a good one. A financial advisor cannot make a initial disclosure to say that they are acting in the capacity as &#8216;execution only&#8217; and then offer advice on what mortgage to buy. This is not limiting their freedom of speech, but ensuring their actions are transparent and consistent. I see no problem with insisting that alternative medicine practitioners act consistently with their disclosures. The alternative might be top make non-medically qualified alternative medicine practices illegal &#8211; as say, NMQP Homeopaths are in France. Is that a curtailment of freedom of speech?</p>
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		<title>By: gimpyblog</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5773</link>
		<dc:creator>gimpyblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5773</guid>
		<description>I wrote a long post echoing much of what quacknet said but it got lost in the ether.  You can&#039;t legislate for thoughts and opinion.  My teenage libertarian instincts still kick in now and again.  The real issue is not the silencing of homeopaths but making them accountable for their actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote a long post echoing much of what quacknet said but it got lost in the ether.  You can&#8217;t legislate for thoughts and opinion.  My teenage libertarian instincts still kick in now and again.  The real issue is not the silencing of homeopaths but making them accountable for their actions.</p>
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		<title>By: quacknet</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5772</link>
		<dc:creator>quacknet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5772</guid>
		<description>Dear BD, &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is all good stuff (and David Colquhoun&#039;s blog is as funny and as apt as ever), but I have a nagging worry about one of your recommended strictures, namely your idea that &#039;any attempt to undermine this disclosure or denigrate or undermine a person&#039;s GP or their advice would be an offense.&#039; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You are straying into some rather difficult territory, as a) there are more than a few medical practitioners working at distinctly sub-optimal levels of competence, and b) there are legitimate concerns about the validity of some of the current medical / industrial norms. Ask any research cardiologist about statins, for example.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I believe that your suggestion would stifle (criminalise) an area of debate which, while not as well controlled as occurs in the scientific literature or among the scientific community at large, is still potentially valuable in that it can eventually lead to more formal investigations. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Criminalising the expression of views that you disagree with is not, I would submit, a politically healthy direction to go down. Let&#039;s not create a medical version of Sharia. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Maybe we could be more specific, and more case-sensitive. If you were to make it an offence to deliberately mis-represent science - medical or otherwise - with the aim of profiting thereby, that, I think, would be the basis of a more reasonable form of legal control.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;All the best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear BD, </p>
<p>This is all good stuff (and David Colquhoun&#8217;s blog is as funny and as apt as ever), but I have a nagging worry about one of your recommended strictures, namely your idea that &#8216;any attempt to undermine this disclosure or denigrate or undermine a person&#8217;s GP or their advice would be an offense.&#8217; </p>
<p>You are straying into some rather difficult territory, as a) there are more than a few medical practitioners working at distinctly sub-optimal levels of competence, and b) there are legitimate concerns about the validity of some of the current medical / industrial norms. Ask any research cardiologist about statins, for example.</p>
<p>I believe that your suggestion would stifle (criminalise) an area of debate which, while not as well controlled as occurs in the scientific literature or among the scientific community at large, is still potentially valuable in that it can eventually lead to more formal investigations. </p>
<p>Criminalising the expression of views that you disagree with is not, I would submit, a politically healthy direction to go down. Let&#8217;s not create a medical version of Sharia. </p>
<p>Maybe we could be more specific, and more case-sensitive. If you were to make it an offence to deliberately mis-represent science &#8211; medical or otherwise &#8211; with the aim of profiting thereby, that, I think, would be the basis of a more reasonable form of legal control.</p>
<p>All the best.</p>
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		<title>By: jdc324</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5771</link>
		<dc:creator>jdc324</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quackometer.net/wpblog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5771</guid>
		<description>Excellent stuff, LCN. Incidentally, the link to Polly Toynbee&#039;s straight talking article is showing up as an HTTP 404 error when I click on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent stuff, LCN. Incidentally, the link to Polly Toynbee&#8217;s straight talking article is showing up as an HTTP 404 error when I click on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/01/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html#comment-5770</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>bravo, Little Black Duck&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;its clearly &#039;quackers&#039; to have &quot;a lay person...not able to judge the scientific validity of these therapies&quot; (as Prof Higgins says about herself) to head up an organisation that the public will consider, er, will &#039;judge the scientific validity of these therapies&#039;.&lt;br/&gt;More importantly, to judge the questionable actions of a therapist against expected practice based on the &quot;scientific validity&quot; of their chosen woo subject. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There again, perhaps this should be a salutatory warning to the public about just how relaxed the alt.health industry and its self-regulatory (or should that be self-congratulatory?) bodies are when comes to exploiting the vulnerable against a backdrop of &#039;pic&#039;n&#039;mix&#039; practices designed to ensure the maximum placebo response for optimum income generation. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is worse than letting the lunatics run the asylum - at least they know the layout of the place. Indeed, it&#039;s akin to pill-pushing vitamin entrepreneurs assuming control of your childs education.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Hang on, thats happened already, hasn&#039;t it? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Precedent set. Sanity lost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bravo, Little Black Duck</p>
<p>its clearly &#8216;quackers&#8217; to have &#8220;a lay person&#8230;not able to judge the scientific validity of these therapies&#8221; (as Prof Higgins says about herself) to head up an organisation that the public will consider, er, will &#8216;judge the scientific validity of these therapies&#8217;.<br />More importantly, to judge the questionable actions of a therapist against expected practice based on the &#8220;scientific validity&#8221; of their chosen woo subject. </p>
<p>There again, perhaps this should be a salutatory warning to the public about just how relaxed the alt.health industry and its self-regulatory (or should that be self-congratulatory?) bodies are when comes to exploiting the vulnerable against a backdrop of &#8216;pic&#8217;n'mix&#8217; practices designed to ensure the maximum placebo response for optimum income generation. </p>
<p>This is worse than letting the lunatics run the asylum &#8211; at least they know the layout of the place. Indeed, it&#8217;s akin to pill-pushing vitamin entrepreneurs assuming control of your childs education.</p>
<p>Hang on, thats happened already, hasn&#8217;t it? </p>
<p>Precedent set. Sanity lost.</p>
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