Comments on: Matthias Rath: The "Definitive Charlatan"

By: Fundstücke 16 « Die Ausrufer

Fundstücke 16 « Die Ausrufer — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:40:40 +0000

[...] vegetables are the answer to the HIV problem. Ben Goldacre describes in his book Bad Science how Matthias Rath exploited the Mbeki government’s fantasies that a local, African HIV solution could be found by [...]

By: Luc Montagnier’s Porridge Pill Cure for AIDS | The Quackometer

Luc Montagnier’s Porridge Pill Cure for AIDS | The Quackometer — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:47:02 +0000

By: Wig

Wig — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:37:35 +0000

I read somewhere:

< I'm happy for us to agree to disagree.. >

That is the classical expression from persons who feel they are wrong, towards some extent, but won't admit it and flee in words...

By: Henrietta Hughes

Henrietta Hughes — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:52:25 +0000

While I agree with your sentiments on AIDS and Cancer treatment with vitamins, one issue that has gone largely unaddressed in your post is that of cardiovascular disease.

It is unfortunate that Rath's extreme endeavors take away from the one area that may hold some truth. The fact is indisputable that Vitamin C is necessary for collagen production in the human body (among other things such as neurotransmitters, some hormones to name a few). Our blood vessels are made up of collagen.

There are many studies independent of Rath that show positive cardiovascular benefits of higher than USRDA levels of Vitamin C supplementation in areas of blood pressure, diabetes, atherosclerotic heart disease, stroke and more. The USRDA for Vitamin C is set at a level to prevent scurvy in the general population and does not take into account the other functions that Vitamin C performs in the human body and the fact that the human body, when under stress, has been shown to make use of more Vitamin C.

While it is important to point out quackery where it exists (like Rath's AIDS/Africa debacle), sites like yours can sometimes go to the other extreme, confusing the average layman. This can be dangerous-- steering people completely away from vitamins.

A best path would be for people to make sure that they do have proper nutrition, and supplementing certain vitamins and minerals as needed to attain this, in addition to accepting traditional medical treatments when necessary.

By: Claire

Claire — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:08:00 +0000

PaulC, I'm not disputing the link between salt intake and high blood pressure, just observing that reports I've seen of the NK intervention, including articles by Dr Pekka Puska identify other factors - serum cholesterol reduction (high levels of dairy fat consumed pre intervention), reduction in smoking, increase in fresh vegetable and fruit consumption and dietary fibre, and increasing levels of physical activity - as at least as important in reducing CV and cancer illness and death.Again, the whole package vs. individual interventions argument.

The article I've linked to also refers, briefly, to other postulated causes of heart disease, including stress and social injustice/inequality, raising the question (for me) whether high levels of social cohesion aided the success of the Finnish project. The interesting question of the translatability of the Karelia experience into different social contexts is discussed here .

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:51:00 +0000

You’ll notice I haven’t left Ben much wriggle room – he’s either damned or he’s damned. The problem is that he’s too smart to have misunderstood the Karelia project so profoundly, and so I have to assume that he has a specific agenda for wanting to misinterpret it in the way he does. At a certain point, and as the multiple strands of evidence mount and merge, his reluctance to accept a very well-documented argument that he might not like ‘on the grounds that there are still so many unquantifiable variables’, becomes dishonest / disingeuous. paulC

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:59:00 +0000

Clare, The Finnish Nutrition Surveillance site is somewhat out of step with the scientists who actually did the work; it was a multi-faceted intervention, but the concensus is that it was the sodium reduction, together with the increased intakes of potassium and magnesium, that is directly responsible for the fall in Finnish blood pressure. A reduction in sat fats would not have had this effect. And for Ben G to dismiss the project by blurring pharmaconutition with social enginering is either disingenuous or dishonest. It is as simple as that. paulC

By: Claire

Claire — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:58:00 +0000

I’ve located the “Bad Science” reference to the North Karelia Project – pp.131 (last para.)-132. The preceding paragraph concludes with the point that, as well as diet, social and environmental factors are important in health.

“…Reasonable benefits have been shown in intervention studies – like the North Karelia Project in Finland – where the public health gang have moved themselves in lock, stock and barrel to set about changing everything about an entire community’s behaviour, liaising with businesses to change the food in shops, modifying whole lifestyles, employing community educators and advocates, improving healthcare provision and more, producing some benefits, if you accept that the methodology used justifies a causal inference. …”

(We are then advised to read the study online but there isn’t a specific link in the notes.)But it looks like a major, multi-faceted intervention.

By: Claire

Claire — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:02:00 +0000

Re Finland, Ben Goldacre refers somewhere in his book to the 'public health gang' there and their success in improving things like CV mortality rates. (Useful things, indexes...!). The interventions appear to have consisted of more than just salt reduction (important though that is). The official Finnish nutrition surveillance site ,(KTL) calls the reduction in saturated fat intake the most significant change:

"The most significant change in the Finnish diet over the past few decades has been the reduced intake of saturated fats. In the early 1970's saturated fats [main sources reportedly milk and butter - see 2006 pdf below] accounted for 21% of total energy intake; by 1982 the figure had dropped to 19% and by 1997 to 14%. At the same time the proportion of energy derived from total fat has declined from 38% to 33% . Although there is still some way to go to reach the recommended levels (saturated fats and total fat should account for 10% and 30%, respectively), the intake of saturated fats is no longer at an exceptionally high level compared to other countries in Europe. The share of trans fatty acids from energy was only 0.9% in men and 0.8% in women in 1997. "

The situation regarding excessive salt consumption, it says, is "slowly improving" - though a 2006 report available from the same site as a pdf, "Nutrition in Finland", gives the 2002 consumption averages as 9.5g in men and 7g in women, "remarkably" down from 1979 figures (13.5 and 10g respectively). This 2006 report also notes that the favourable downward trend in saturated fats consumption is showing signs of levelling off.

I think all the above is my loser-length way of suggesting that it's the whole diet/lifestyle picture that's important rather than focussing on one element e.g. salt. And what appears to work well in a specific context, such as high animal fat consumption in the Maasai not causing excess CV illness, is not transplantable to other contexts. Or, to quote Ben Goldacre: "it's a bit more complicated than that".

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:50:00 +0000

Clare, thanks for the link. I have a longstanding interest in the Massai, from a nutritional perspective and also personally – my father lived with them. High levels of physical activity contribute to their cardio-protection, but the major factor is their low sodium intake. In Finland, a national sodium reduction program has cut both heart attack and stroke by 80% in the last 25 years. The key insigator is Heikki Karpannen, a wonderful man and a great scientist who initiated the most important dietary intervention programme ever; the Karelia Project, which demonstrates inter alia the greater efficacy and far greater safety of achieving better health through dietary change, than can be achieved by drugs. Our abysmal public health figures show the malignant influence of a major multinational company which sells an extraordinarily toxic combination of salty snack foods and sugar-sweetened beverages. High sodium intake is inextricably linked to hypertension, which is exaccerbated by overweight. PaulC