Biodynamic Farming: “A rather magnificent cow-dung ice cream cone”

Are you really saying that Dave has resorted to fallacious reasoning right from the get-go?

I am shocked.

You are putting the dichotomy forward, Andy , not I. You and Simon are the ones who seemingly can’t tolerate different beliefs than your own. Why should you assume that I disagree that “evidence and reason does not have to provide animals with a ‘ghastly life’? I have nothing against evidence and reason, and when people harness them to produce better food in a sustainable way, I will and do support them. Like Simon and most self-appointed ‘sceptics’, you assume more than you see or hear, and you cherry-pick the points you want to argue about. Why don’t you address the main points that I am making, that the processes and rituals of biodynamic farming may produce good results because they engender enthusiasm, passion, love and care among those who use them? If you don’t engender those qualities somehow, I think you will get a poor result. If you can engender them with evidence and reason, that’s great, too … although I think it’s pretty arrogant of people to assume that biodynamic farmers or gardeners don’t value evidence or reason too.

Dave. You said, “. If you want “scientific” farming, buy a slab of lot-fed beef from a cow that’s had a ghastly life on a bit of dirt ”

Science is application of evidence and reason to better understand the world.

If you have evidence that the application of Steiner’s occult rituals actually improve yield, welfare of animals, or any other important metric (other than the farmer’s sense of self-importance), then please present it.

So, put your money where your mouth is, and let’s start critically appraising the evidence.

If there is any.

Andy, Simon: I know you will revel in my confession, but I’m not particularly interested in any attempts to “scientifically prove” the advantages of biodynamic farming. I actually do put my money where my mouth is on a regular basis! The “evidence” for me that biodynamic farming works is that the biodynamic yoghurt and milk I buy taste much better than the other yoghurt and milk I buy. I also know the biodynamic fruit and veggies I buy have been grown without artificial chemicals or pesticides, and that the soil in which they are grown has not been depleted but enriched. This enhances my enjoyment of the food still further. I believe from personal observation that the farmers and gardeners responsible for the produce have grown it with love and care and a sense of respect for nature and its rhythms and mysteries. These are of course very subjective perceptions, but as I stated in my first comment, I’m not looking at the issue from a “scientific perspective”. I don’t need one in this matter. Can I conclusively prove that Steiner’s odd rituals actually make better food? Of course not.
I can, however, make some claim to objectivity. I place similar value on the food I grow myself (organically, not biodynamically, btw), but I can tell the difference between the good food I have grown and the mediocre. I think most people who enjoy biodynamic produce keep buying it because they can discern that it is usually of a very high quality. If it weren’t they would stop buying it. The essential point I am making, which both of you pointedly overlook,is not that the so-called occult practices of biodynamic farming “work”, but that the care that may be enhanced by such rituals produces good food.
Unfortunately, most food is being produced mechanistically, in order to create as much of it as cheaply as possible. This is where I see science most keenly applied to agriculture and horticulture. The “green revolution” and genetic modification of plants are two of the best modern examples. One could argue about their pros and cons for a lifetime, but I think the most pertinent issue is that the mechanisation of food production has dehumanised the most human of activities and profoundly alienated us from the soil that sustains us. I’d love to hear some examples of how evidence and reason has been applied in a positive way.

“If you have evidence that the application of Steiner’s occult rituals actually improve yield, welfare of animals,… “

They probably don’t. There’s a biodynamic farm near here (in West Australia) and they refuse to give their animals necessary pharmaceuticals until they’ve tried everything else and things look dire. I translate that as “we let them suffer quite a bit before we let science enter the equation.”

Dave

The dichotomy was implicit in your first post even if you were unaware of it.

the processes and rituals of biodynamic farming may produce good results because they engender enthusiasm, passion, love and care among those who use them

I cannot prove the opposite. It is, however, self-evident that the belief system carries a load of irrational baggage.

I think it’s pretty arrogant of people to assume that biodynamic farmers or gardeners don’t value evidence or reason too

I shall be generous and make an assumption of my own, that you neither looked at the YouTube nor listened to the audio track so you would not have heard the farmer brushing off any exploration of evidence or reason. You obviously could not see the rev counter on RA Fisher’s grave. Mine is sat next to bullshitmeter and my ironymeter. It works just fine even though it suffers shrapnel impact for the regular explosions of its two neighbours. If I can do no more than prompt you to explore the history of agricultural field trials using Fisher’s Wikipedia page as a starting point, then I shall be happy.

I would, by the way, be interested for you to cite a specific example of Andy or me cherry-picking on this page. If it helps, remember that cherry-picking is not the same as either highlighting good bits or citing examples that illustrate a general pattern.

Playing the race card on this one is more than a bit of a stretch, Nick … unless you think discrimination between food grown in different ways is a form of racism? No I don’t regard any races as inferior or superior, and neither do I regard Steiner as a superior spiritual being whose opinions about everything must be suitably deferred to. I was simply referring to the fact that biodynamic practices may create a ritual that enable a sense of reverence and respect for the land and the soil, regardless of whether they “work” in any other sense.

Why on earth would stuffing cow horns full of manure and burying them, or using astrology, be necessary or helpful in enabling a “sense of reverence and respect for the land” as opposed to reducing people’s ability to think clearly about anything, encouraging them to reject science, and brainwashing them so that they are susceptible to manipulation and exploitation by cults- because that is what BD is all about really. In my experience people who choose to garden for their own pleasure or even as a career do not need hocus-pocus or any other hogwash like this to instill “reverence” or anysuch for the land- they already have a love of the outdoors and plants which are fascinating enough in themselves. Your repeating of this bogus attempt to justify the practices of a cult is patronising bullshit. It goes back to the same point I already made- totally devaluing the care and attention gardeners and farmers will give to their work without this pathetic mumbo-jumbo.

“Patronising bullshit”, “hogwash”, “pathetic mumbo-jumbo”: Sorry, Graham, I don’t enter into discussions at the lower level. Take your aggression out on someone else.

Dave,
you think a non-white person complaining about a cult that specifically claims that non-white people are inferior is ‘playing the race card’? At which point do think it would be legitimate to complain?

Nice try, Nick, but, as you know, I said “playing the race card on this one”. That means I think relating what I have said about biodynamic gardening to Steiner’s views on race is not relevant. To me, it’s like saying we shouldn’t listen to someone’s music because they of the racist views they expressed. Racist beliefs have been common throughout history among people of all races, and happily they have been subject to appropriate scrutiny at a global level in our time. That doesn’t mean we should now discard and dismiss all the ideas of someone simply because they expressed racist views.

Dave

If you’re going to nest comments as replies then it would be handy if they appeared in the relevant place.

The Google Alert thing was a bit of joke intended to get the post started and make a comment on the way that some posters here pop up like whack-a-moles to comment out of the blue on specific topics then disappear again. Unless you tell me otherwise, if you put Steiner into Google Alerts, I expect you’d be inundated with other Steiner-related items and this site would be lost in the noise. I hope that explains the situation adequately and, fair enough, you follow this site specifically and choose to respond when Steiner gets mentioned. Good on you and long may you remain.

You misunderstand the motives of sceptics who post here if you think we want an echo chamber. I think I am speaking accurately for the various posters whom I also know in the real world that what really makes our day is having people turn up here to express opposing views. However, that is seriously tempered by the fact that they never pursue rational and disciplined discussion to its logical conclusions. So, please stick around rather than following that other well-trodden path.

Why do you refuse to respond to my arguments except with more so-called “gentle mockery”? Try playing the ball, not the man.

Your arguments have been responded to. The ball has been played, but one problem is that you have no evidence to sustain such arguments as you have presented and it’s hard to do much when you provide very thin material with which to work.

Why do I (try) to play it for laughs? Because angry rants are no fun at all. I try to hang serious points on my efforts at humour. If you don’t ‘get’ my sense of humour then there is a big interweb out there where you might find things that do make you laugh. This still makes me laugh. .

Simon, I wasn’t asking why you “play it for laughs”. I asked why you had resorted to mockery (which I personally find supercilious and condescending rather than humorous) rather than address my arguments. Up until that point in the discussion (2.03 am) you had not done so. Why you think I would want to stick around after you respond to my arguments with cheap ridicule (“Do you have gnomes in a biodynamic garden? I suppose you must.”) intrigues me, when it would seem you intent was just the opposite.

“organic beef is a lifestyle affectation not a model for feeding 9 billion people..” – i think you are probably right. The links between organics and BD are very strong however- in Ireland most organic horticulture courses are run by biodynamic proponents; the SA promotes BD, many of the ideologies are the same.

My opinion is, people without much experience of what farming and growing food really entails are very easily mislead into thinking that a feel-good thing like BD (stuffing cow’s horns?! weird how people get their kicks..) is actually responsible for the food that is produced; if on the other hand they are not skilled gardeners and the BD magic doesnt help, this is easily rationalised away.

We are lucky enough, thanks to science, to live in a society of food abundance, so rarely have to feel the effects of our failures in our belly- we just pop down to the local supermarket and stock up. This is often conveniently not counted. I know one organic small-holder who grows organic potatoes to sell at premium price, but buys cheap (and perfectly good) spuds from Lidl to feed his Wwoof-ers (volunteers). It is really just a less extreme version of the breatharian who claims not to need to eat anything but turns out to have a fridge full of sausages.

I think that just like with AltMed the harm comes from the lost opportunity to get the full benefit of doing it as well as it can be done (without exhausting the soil carbon of course).

Our eldest is a sommelier and is entranced by biodynamic wine. She gets very defensive and does not want to hear when I try to point out the problems with the philosophy and the Steiner origins. We visited a biodynamic vineyard in Central Otago, NZ with her and because a professional was with us we got a tour by the assistant wine maker instead of just a tasting. It was interesting, he addressed the biodynamic thing then dismissed it as unimportant. What is important to him is knowing when the pick the grapes, not how to grow them. It was fascinating and if you ever see a Central Otago Chenin Blanc in the future (you won’t at the moment) grab it with both hands.

I suspect biodynamic farming ‘works’ with grapes because they famously thrive best in the worst soils and do NOT like being even lightly fertilised by normal standards. Biodynamic, being the homeopathy of farming therefore offers few chances for interventionist vineyard managers to do ‘too much’ to the vines.

I’ll finish by recommending a wine you might be able to buy: Quartz Reef bubbly, Majestic stocks it occasionally we were informed. Not biodynamic but they still do the yeast removal, recharching and recorking bit by hand. We watched them doing it. No idea if it makes a difference or just provides needed jobs in Cromwell, but the fizz is very good nevertheless.

Muscle Guy, there’s a great (but now inactive) blog all about the claims of BD vineyards over at: http://biodynamicshoax.wordpress.com/
The writer, Stu Smith, has grown vines for decades and has looked at this issue in huge detail. Hid conclusion is very similar to Graham’s in that all the claims made by BD are either false or can be explained by non-BD plain old science.

If you blow off the rituals then you are left with sustainable agriculture w/o the biodynamics mojo. In the US the best examples of sustainable ag are the Amish who expect their families for generations untold to farm their land.

A farmer cannot sell poor quality produce indefinitely since agriculture is very competitive, so his attitude is forced by the marketplace, not magical beliefs.

Biodynamics is such a thin veneer on sustainable ag, yet it claims all the benefits of the underlying operation. All Steiner did was add some woo to practices that have been in place for millennia. Cult practices always worry me because when things are going all wrong (droughts, etc.), someone always wants to up the ante by getting weird and adding sacrifices to unnamed deities.

Organic farmers have enough problems with Big Farma without looking stupid with upside down gnomes and whatnot.

“I’m not saying that the rituals produce good results, I’m saying that the attitude of the farmer plays a role in the quality of what he produces.”

I’m very glad this is what Dave is saying – because if he were claiming Biodynamics produces good results, he would be wrong. Biodynamic farming typically produces very LOW yields… that’s the opposite of what farmers want. Does the food taste better? Well, no… it really doesn’t taste any better than “organic” and non-organic vegetables grown elsewhere. Other than being slightly “stunted”, biodynamic vegetables appear to be no different than other vegetables. So, why would farmers go to all this extra effort for less yield and no difference in taste? Why do people go to the effort of getting dressed up every Sunday and going pray? It’s the same thing… it’s a religious exercise, nothing more.

Dave, so if it’s an attitude to farming and not the rituals then one can assume….the rituals are not effective or that they serve some kind of ‘blood and soil’ purpose?

Sorry Nick. I’ve already wasted an inordinate amount of time on this blog and I overlooked your question here. Please refer to my other reply.

” I’m not saying that the rituals produce good results, I’m saying that the attitude of the farmer plays a role in the quality of what he produces.” So that’s very interesting- you dont think BD works in other words. So why do it? I had in fact answered your point about passion and joy into gardening- obviously no-one needs rituals of any kind to enjoy farming or gardening, and Im sure most farmers are committed to dong the best they can and producing the best produce.
You say above that people wouldn’t buy BD produce unless they thought it was good, which may be true to a point, but noone has produced any evidence that BD farmers have a “better” attitude to their work than anyone else, nor that such an attitude would lead to “better” quality produce. Most people who by BD produce dont know what it is or anything about Steiner- they are seduced by the marketing, the “reputation for quality” which for those who can afford thre status it brings makes it worth the “premium price”, which is all it is: expensive organic produce with woo.
But when you have people like yourself defending this marketing deception, but encouraging perhaps the more innocent and easily mislead- young volunteers in Camphill Communities perhaps- to accept these rituals as being actually useful, what you have is a cult, and that can be very dangerous.

It seems obvious to me and from the BD gardeners and farmers I have met that they do indeed believe the rituals work, that Steiner was a genius etc.. Otherwise they wouldnt use them. This is corroborated by this article of yours:
http://aliceonline.com.au/2011/06/29/biodynamics-stirring-stuff/
– “”… the more I apply it and just suspend my disbeliefs …” says the gardener.

But you seem to imply that it is good they continue to use these methods even though you know they dont do anything. This would seem to be a bit deceptive. Surely it would be far better to do things that do work, to spend ones time using scientific approaches that have verifiable results. Otherwise

“Seem to imply”: operative words here. If you can’t help but extrapolate, think “different strokes for different folks.”

As a townie who gets agitated when the concrete runs out i do not know the difference between manure and compost. I happily look out over the countryside but never enter it as it appears to consist mostly of dung, animals trying to kill each other and machinery designed to traumatically dismember your body.

There is a character in Zola’s La Terre called Madam Poo Poo. She is an old widow who empties the contents of her chamberpot over her vegetables which she then sells at market. The locals publicly deplore this disgusting habit but secretly buy her veg as it tastes good.

Maybe she vortexed her potty.

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost you will see that manure is in fact used in compost in some cases as the source of nitrogen needed for the decomposition. For organic farming, city leaves are ground up and composted. Grass is avoided because of probable contamination by herbicides and/or chemical fertilizers. Horse manure is avoided because of broad leaf herbicides in hay that would kill beds of greens a farmer is trying to grow. Swine manure is avoided because of high copper levels. If the inputs to the animals are certified organic, the manure is highly prized. Grass fed beef manure is usually retained on the fields where the cattle grazed.

I always use cow manure in my (not biodynamic) compost, produced by Central Australia’s grass-fed rangeland cows. Most gardeners here don’t use horse manure because it is notorious for carrying harmful nematodes .

I think you may be referring to Aerated Compost Teas which have become all the rage amongst some BD practitioners, and others who are innocently lead to believe that this confers some kind of credibility on BD, a justification for Steiner’s nonsense.
There isnt really any evidence that aerating “teas” and spraying it on the land or on plants does anything very much: the claims made for them are certainly extravagant, but it is always tempting to market the next miracle method for hugely improving yields, disease resistance etc.. I wouldnt waste time with them- there are many other tried and tested ways to improve soil quality and fertility. I wrote about this here some time ago: http://zone5.org/2010/07/stirring-crazy-permaculture-biodynamics-and-compost-teas/

““I think he’s saying much more than that, like which attitudes affect the quality of which products.” Think whatever you like. That’s not what I’m saying.”

My apologies then Dave. I thought you were expressing a view about the sort of farming attitudes that can impact on product quality. I thought you were saying that biodynamics might be representative of an attitude that can enhance farmers’ enthusiasm for their craft and animal welfare, with pay-offs in product quality, and that scientific approaches can engender a poisonous disregard for animal welfare and product quality. From looking back over your posts, it really looks like that; which makes me think you’re using language in a different way that I’m used to, or you’re in the business of denying you’ve said what you’ve said?

(Sigh.) I’m saying that attitude can affect the quality of what is produced, if it determines how well the farmer or gardener does his job. If all the people who work together in mass-production farming approach their work with love and care, that could affect the quality of what they produce too. Get it?

No, you are clearly trying to make out that BD has something to offer that normal farmers do not have: something extra that just normal approach to work and farming needs or can benefit from. It does not have any such quality. Its purpose is to promote a mystical cult.

Well, so you say, Graham. I can’t argue with someone who appears incapable of understanding subtleties, which makes me wonder why I alighted on this discussion in the first place when there are so many with that affliction.

But the claim by BD practitioners is also that the practices do actually work, that they improve the produce in some way, that is what they believe and that is how it is marketed. This does tie in with Nick’s point about race because although I do not think generally that the average BD practitioner has any explicit concept of racial supremacy, there is no question that the mystical belief is to do with purity: purity of the soil, purity of the food…. purity of those who eat the food, and by extension of the Race. This is how these ideas play out in practice. This idea of purity is just as strong in much of the organic movement also- it fosters elitism, which is a characteristic of the whole environmental movement IMO.

Why “by extension the race”, unless you are assuming that only people of one race eat biodynamic food? Interesting ideas, but you need to do a lot more work on them.

In your earlier comment you said… “…at the very least their [Steiner’s ideas] value is that they […] engage farmers or gardeners in their work. The enthusiasm and passion […] these engender enhance the more conventional organic practices that are employed.”

That reads as a statement of fact – in short “BD enhances farming practices”. But do you have data that demonstrate this? Is BD produce always better? Can it possibly be worse than non-BD produce?

If it’s not guaranteed to deliver better outcomes, or even materially affect outcomes, what is it for? What’s to defend other than the right to religious freedom?

I’m sorry you can’t tell the difference between fact and opinion.

Thanks Dave.

“If all the people who work together in mass-production farming approach their work with love and care, that could affect the quality of what they produce too. Get it?”

Yes, I get that entirely, but it does read as quite a climb down from the powerful false dichotomy you set up earlier. No amount of “all I was saying” will conceal that you have very clearly said quite a lot:

“Even if some of Steiner’s ideas can’t be proved and sound fanciful, at the very least their value is that they psychologically and (naughty word coming up) spiritually engage farmers or gardeners in their work. The enthusiasm and passion (sorry, two more naughty words!) these engender enhance the more conventional organic practices that are employed. If you want “scientific” farming, buy a slab of lot-fed beef from a cow that’s had a ghastly life on a bit of dirt with ten thousand others, or a chook that’s been kept awake all its life in flourescent lit hellholes, unable to move more than a few inches. Give me the sugar-pill of biodynamic food, created with (last two naughty words) love and care any day before that poison.”

But actually, I still don’t entirely agree. I can see why farmers’ concern and passion for product quality has a direct relationship with product quality, but I (genuinely) still need convincing of this implicit assumption that happy, healthy lovingly nurtured and organically-reared animals result in better product ‘quality’. Like I said earlier: I’m just not sure why nature would arrange itself to force a relationhship between the mental state of animals, and the taste of its flesh and byproducts to predators? Foie-gras is considered a delicacy, but comes from some of the most distressed and diseased animals on the planet. (Do you think biodymanic foie-gras would be of better ‘quality’ – I personally doubt it?). Personally I’d rather have inferior quality food if it came from happier, less-distressed animals, and don’t need one to follow the other…

I had retired from this discussion, because I don’t have time, but since you are so polite, I would just like to clarify, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that these are my opinions, not facts. You may of course be right in your opinions.
The welfare of animals is probably the major concern for me in my decisions as a carnivore consumer, and I don’t eat foie-gras, for example. Our household has a low income, but we pay more for food that we are led to believe has been raised and slaughtered humanely. Nevertheless my impression has been the free-range chooks, and wild game meat we eat is “better” in a number of ways. I think impressions are actually outside the are of proof.
As for “quite a climb down” … of course, I disagree. Yes, I concede that “If all the people who work together in mass-production farming approach their work with love and care, that could affect the quality of what they produce too.” The operative word is “if”, and I think the likelihood of such an event is extremely low.

Sorry, make that “area of proof.”

Thanks Dave (have ‘replied’ to your earlier post, as the facility seems to be missing from these later ones?).

I too used to think that organic, ethically-farmed produce was of better ‘quality’, but then came to the realisation that this was probably some sort of placebo, to do with me feeling better about what I was eating (I have no idea what dog tastes like, but am fairly confident I’d find it nauseating). Now I’m less focussed on quality, and more focussed on ethics (and am therefore of course a failed vegetarian), and have cut the organic aspect adrift as an automatic indicator of anything safe or ethical. So with you, I (very easily) avoid foie-gras, and also ritually slaughtered meats, factory poultry, barn-reared veal, at risk fish species etc. etc.; and along the way, am probably missing out on some ‘quality’ gastronomical delights, given that ethics and quality are two separate concepts.

Not sure if there’s anything of interest in there…

Thanks Adzcliff. I don’t think that organic automatically means better-tasting. Obviously there are many factors involved and it would probably be impossible to isolate or identify them all. Over the years I believe I have detected a loss of flavour in many kinds of non-organically grown fruit, such as mangoes and rockmelon, which have tended to become either blander or much sweeter with less actual flavour. This applies less to vegetables. I also believe I have observed a difference in the taste of chicken. Battery chickens taste quite bland to me on the rare occasions I encounter them. We get two types of free range chook; one of them tastes marginally better, and the other significantly better. But I concede that these are all subjective impressions. It would be interesting to run a very big taste-testing study to see if people can identify a difference when they don’t know where the food is coming from. Maybe it’s already been done. But as regards fruit and vegetables my preference for organic is primarily because I believe organic growing is more sustainable.

I’m much more prepared to believe that small scale producers with low food-miles can produce more tasty products. The modern supermarket strawberry is a shiny red bullet that tastes, approximately, of shiny red bullet. But being BD or ‘organic’ is probably an irrelevance

The problem is that in industrial food production, optimisation for disease-resistance and reliability in storage and transit comes at the cost of optimisation for other features such as taste. We don’t need trials for that, it is a self-evident truth.

The problem is that “organic” is often confounded by these other variables. The problem is that non-industrial food production brought us the living standards of the Middle Ages. I’d love every cow to be regularly cuddled and for each soft flavourful strawberry to be cosseted by a buxom and pretty country maiden as it is gently delivered to my plate, but I think costs might rise and the other 7-billion people on the planet might get hungrier.

Cheers Dave.

Just an interesting anecdote, but British celebrity chef Rick Stein conducted that very blind chicken-tasting test on himself and other diners, and I recall the results pointed slightly away from organic (with he himself embarrassingly choosing a miserable barn-reared chicken). As for the organic method being more sustainable, I’m increasingly learning that may well be a romantic ideal due to the sheer amount of land and atmosphere than needs turning over to greenhouse gas producing manure machines (i.e. cattle). Matt Ridley goes into this at length in the Rational Optimist if you’re interested.

Ta.

So, a chook fed on organic grains, or what? I was referring to free-range chickens, not “organic” chickens. I think the term “organic chicken” could cover a wide variety of sins! I’d like to see the test conducted on free-range chickens fed on a broad diet with no added hormones.
I think it’s quite feasible that we could see a move among urban dwellers to more intense and better organised gardens in cities. This is what we’re seeing here in Alice Springs, and I note that in depressed Detroit a lot of people have been turning vacant areas into gardens and selling their food in growers’ markets. Permaculture may be an effective way of increasing yields as an alternative to industrialised farming. No need for the buxom maidens or cuddled cows in Simon’s odd fantasy, just ordinary people rethinking what constitutes a good use of time and space! (Incidentally, strawberries are among the most sprayed of any fruit. In my opinion that’s the best reason to prefer them organic).
I’d be surprised to hear Matt Ridley still discouraging organic farming on the basis of its contribution to global warming, given his widely expressed views on that subject in recent times. Apart from that, if there is a problem with cattle producing methane, then I would have though the far bigger problem is the world’s growing demand for beef. Do cattle in feed lots produce less methane than grass-fed cows?

Yeah sorry, I think it was a budget factory chicken, ‘organic’ chicken and a free-range, but I recognise none of those terms are necessarily mutually exclusive. Sorry I can’t remember more, it may well be Googleable (and I may well be wrong).

Ta.

Yep, it looks like I misremembered it quite considerably. Just come across a discussion forum with this:

“…rick stein did a programme over christmas he blind tested turkeys

he did get a shock as all his testers preferred his supermarket turkey better than his free to roam the estate turkey” As did he.

When I bought produce from the biodynamic garden at the local Steiner School, I knew exactly where it was coming from and how it was grown.

Yes, but not because it was BD. Of course you know more about locally-grown produce that the stuff you find at major supermarkets. I know where the fruit and veggies in my back yard come from, and what’s been sprayed on them (nothing) and what they were grown in (mostly worthless and barely fortified sand). And of course my own veggies are ultra-fresh. But they aren’t BD.

I don’t need my food to have been blessed by any religious rituals in order for it to taste better.

Good for you Andy. Neither do I.

You are really losing me Dave. On one hand you appear to be defending the religious rituals of biodynamics as producing better food but on the other you apparently don’t think it makes any difference at all. I’ll be gracious and assume I have entirely misunderstood your contributions here.

In response to your recent reply (March 10), which has no button, I can’t see what’s difficult to follow here Andy. Nowhere in anything I have said have I inferred that I “need my food to be blessed by any religious rituals in order for it to taste better.” That’s what “neither do I” clearly applies to. Perhaps you need to read everything I have said.
To make it clearer for you, I am saying that rituals of any kind (religious, atheist or whatever) might have the effect of focussing the mind of the farmer or gardener on their work and this produce better results.
So if for example a group of atheists spent some time before they started work in ritualised affirmation of the importance of creating good food in a sustainable manner, this might also end up in providing “better” food, as well as food that tastes better.

Ah, so does it concern you at all that it’s a lot of nonsense and that people are being duped into believing there’s some sort of scientific basis to it (you have to stir it – alternately and with a deep vortex and much turbulence – for one hour!)?

You’re assuming they’re being duped. That’s rather patronising of you. I thought it was the pursuit of purity you objected to …

Interesting article, Graham. Suggest you check out this good summary on Wikipedia of e-coli and other food-borne illness breakouts in the States: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foodborne_illness_outbreaks_in_the_United_States It would appear e-coli is not predominantly an organic farming problem.

That’s right. And health risks are not predominantly a non-organic problem. Eating is risky.

Dave

Hopefully I can speak for myself.

However, I think the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry Simon referred you to states my case as well as I can.

My posting merely listed some of the phrases you used. I did not cherry pick them or paraphrase them in any way. They seem to fit the definition of CB very well indeed.

It sound like you’ve got some of your own CB going on too, John. Like a lot of the people who write to this blog …

Evidence is eagerly awaited.

Haven’t you been following this discussion? You’re supposed to look it up in Wikipedia!

i have indeed been following the discussion.

Like any sceptic I merely wanted to review the evidence behind your conjecture.

As this is seemingly not availble/non existent I must conclude that it is false.

My back garden is already divided up into squares, concrete ones. I lifted one of the pavers once thinking to sit the compost bin in contact with some soil*, there’s a concrete pad underneath the pavers.

*For the worms you understand. Just a corner of it is in contact and it explodes with worms. I need it in case you are wondering for my wooden planter boxes which is the only way I can grow anything there (herbs and rhubarb by and large).

Muscleguy.

Very good point above regarding incredulity.

He asked a question and he was told that Latin Squares should help him.

Is that true about vines only needing the sugar pill version of fertilising? Sounds likely to me as every vine I have ever seen seems to be planted in dry broken rocks, gravel and shingle. I expected them to be planted in rich, peaty, loamy soil.

As an aside, I can’t help but think that if your garden wasn’t concreted over in the first place you might not need the compost bin nor the planter boxes. Still you could always break it up a bit and grow vines up the walls.

Grapevines in Tayside? I’m not sure global warming has advanced that much, even in the Sunniest City In Scotland. I managed to grow precisely two stunted basil plants last summer, despite starting them off under glass.

Still, I’m sure they were delicious once they were deep-fried.

Thanks Simon.

I am surprised the master of the logical fallacy got caught out. I never expected it and it was not my intention. I thought at the very least I might get done for tone trollery.

I was wondering how to sensibly respond without sounding a twat. I had a few ingenious ways of including Poe and Law into a paragraph.

I did make that the work of a complete feckin eejit (although there is probably one – or more – out there).

Even if the inert little bastards don’t have a Goethian love for me I still have an unrequited love for my rocks.

Even if the inert little bastards don’t have a Goethian love for me I still have an unrequited love for my rocks.

I’m sure those of us blessed with ‘other ways of knowing’ can assure you that your little petrous pals do still love you.

After some time, I re-read these exchanges.

I only respond now to re-affirm that there is a significant difference in academic literature and contemporary usage between Skepticism and Scepticism.

My apologies for the delay in responding. I disagree.

‘These are but wild and whirling words, my lord….’

‘I’m sorry they offend you, heartily.’

‘There’s no offense, my lord.’

Glad to hear that, Melanie.

However, unlike you I know a hawk from a handsaw.

Good for you.

Hi Nick,

Nice blog about the Soil Association. Peter Staudenmaier recently posted a comment on the Waldorf Critics’ list regarding Lippert, his work and Weleda during the Nazi era that may be of interest.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/message/26255

Maintaining the cold-chain is very important in the shelf-life of fruit, as is the ripeness of the fruit when picked. Those variables must be the same when comparing the shelf-life of produce. You can’t compare supermarket products if they have not had the identical treatment from the farm.

I personally believe that Pseudoscience (of which biodynamic farming is a prime example) is a threat to agriculture. It is a complete waste of resources, time and effort. Farmers waste time and money on dilute extracts that do nothing, instead of adding amendment that actually can improve soil quality, sustainability and plant yields. Please do yourself a favour and read the works of Dr Doug Edmeades http://www.grassland.org.nz/userfiles/files/Pseudo-Science%20Paper%20Final.pdf
and and Prof Linda Chalker-Scott. http://puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/index.html

Pseudoscientists advocate the use of these methods because it makes you FEEL good about yourself being in-tune with nature. Is this a good enough reason to waste resources, waste the potential of land to produce and waste money?