Go on, you deserve it. Slap yourself with a Healing Broom

Why can’t you just admit that you done a big mistake writing such rubish and give yourself a 10 ignorance score.

Did you go to a Muy Tai class and got a kick evidence on the efficacy of this equipment in hardening the practitioner’s bones? Tell them to kick you, as hard as they can, as you think their training is quack and that you don’t believe in the broom thing.

PS. You have some valid articles, specially with regards to homeopathy, but this one is not one of them.

I did answer your stupid questions (that by the way – these questions are so dum and have nothing to do with my comment)
– I have not claimed that Chinese Culture means “Ancient Chinese Culture”. (You are so dum, when someone tells you “American Culture” – Do you think about ancient Native Indian’s American Culture”? (Seriously, what kind of drugs are you on?)
– There is also nothing related to acupuncture point’s “age” on my initial comment. (Slippery boy, keep trying to divert the discussion to irrelevant areas. What low quality philosophy course have you done?)

With regards to be racist, you are obviously arrogant and disrespectful towards Chinese Culture believes, you could grow up and stop doing that.

WOW you are definitely not intelligent. You didn’t actually watched the program, did you? Let me help you then.

Firstly: thats from the BBC commissioners (are you blind, or you just missed this part?)

MRI Scan Experiment on Acupuncture: “As to whether the programme over hyped the results of the brain-imaging experiment, it was satisfactory that the statements made by the scientists were a true reflection of their views and an accurate presentation of the experiment” (BBC Commitee February 2006)

There were no complaints regarding the scientific studies conducted in UK and USA – shown in the program.

No one complained when Dr Brian Berman (MD) from “University of Maryland” conducted the first Placebo controlled (large scale) clinical study on Acupuncture, stating that “Acupuncture works for OA (Osteo Arthritis) of the knees”.

It’s been scientifically proven that acupuncture deactivate areas of pain sensation during the MRI scan experiment. And also proven that Acupuncture works for Osteo Arthitis during a controlled clinical trial.

The documentary is well made and widly accepted by the “Royal Society of Medicine” (Guardian 2006) You will need to conduct your own experiments to try denying these facts.

Lots of people have done acupuncture experiments. You quote a couple. There are about 3000 in total. When these 2000 are reviewed together, the evidence that emerges is that there is little convincing evidence acupuncture is nothing more than a theatrical placebo.

This paper appeared in the journal Anesthesia & Analgesia. You ought to read it.

http://www.dcscience.net/Colquhoun-Novella-A&A-2013.pdf

Do you have Learning dissabilities? As I said, acupuncture has been proven for osteo arthritis on a large scale controlled clinical trial.

When something is clinically proven to be effective in a large scale trial, it’s extremely hard to disprove it.

Reviewing hundreds or even thousands of bad quality researches don’t actually clinically prove or disprove anything.

You will need to find a Large Scale Clinical Trial that disprove the efficacy of acupuncture on OA (Osteo Arthritis) of the knees. At this point in time Acupuncture is clinically proven as a scientific and effective treatment for OA of the knees.

Just answering your question on “why there are so many bad researches on acupuncture?” Because clinical trials are expensive, isn’t that obvious?

Clinical trials are also Specific and so each research can only proof that acupuncture is effective for a specific condition. Acupuncture efficacy on the treatment of Osteo-Arthritis of the Knees is been clinically proven.

Because of the growing clinical evidence, more and more Doctors and other medically qualified professionals are using acupuncture as part of their treatment. The post graduation in this field is called “Medical Acupuncture” and only includes the treatment of some specific conditions that acupuncture has clinical evidence to work effectively.

Clinical trials are been funded and are proving that acupuncture has other scientific applications in treating other conditions.

That’s how science works, if you want to disprove each clinical trial. Please do so, getting enough funding and leading the researches yourself.

Let me repeat my simple question to you: have you read the paper on acupuncture and “Osteo-Arthritis of the Knees”?

Can you reference it?

Andrew said:

Just answering your question on “why there are so many bad researches on acupuncture?” Because clinical trials are expensive, isn’t that obvious?

How much does a clinical trial of acupuncture cost?

You dont even read my comments… Oh Gosh… thats answered in my last comment.

Even the NHS acknowledge the efficacy of acupuncture as an effective method of treatment for OA of the knees in 2 different parts of their website about Acupuncture Evidence:

AGAIN:

“For example, one large meta-analysis (a type of systematic review) not carried out by The Cochrane Collaboration included data from more than 17,000 patients. It compared acupuncture to sham acupuncture or no acupuncture without patients being aware of whether they had received real or sham treatment.
This review found acupuncture to be superior to both sham and no treatment for headaches, osteoarthritis, back pain and neck pain.”

(NHS – Choices – Evidence 2014)

You can answer this question yourself, selecting areas of ONLY no evidence, is what you do. (Not intelligent to do that)

That is obviously not true. You suggested a study on OA that was positive. I looked it up, appriased it, and pointed out to you it was rubbish.

As soon as it was obvious it was obvious, YOU IGNOIRED IT and have since pretended it does not exist.

To repeat: do you now admit you are wrong about the OA study?

Are you intellectually honest enough to do that?

Perhaps you would also like to cut and paste the very big caveats that NHS Choices follow that with and then tell me if you think the evidence is strong.

Can you do that?

I’m actually impartial, you are the true believer of wrongly branding Acupuncture as non effective. The research says that Acupuncture is effective for OA of the knees as other researches also found relevant efficacy for other treatments.

The NHS also acknowledge the efficacy of acupuncture for the treatment of many conditions, as listed above.

If you wanna just ignore that and only see one side of the coin. Go for it. Brand Acupuncture as non-effective. ignore the researches, ignore the evidences, ignore the NHS evidence base system using acupuncture, specially on pain clinics.

This trial, and other few good quality trials that I’ve seen looks legit.

“Effectiveness of acupuncture as adjunctive therapy in osteoarthritis of the knee: a randomized, controlled trial.

AuthorsBerman BM, et al. Show all Journal
Ann Intern Med. 2004 Dec 21;141(12):901-10.
[edited: cut out copy and paste]

This is precisely the trial we are discussing. Please try to keep up.

I can explain things to you but I cannot make you understand them.

The trial clearly is not good evidence for the effectiveness of acupunture on OA of the knee for the reasons I have given you.

Acupuncture is an implausible treatment where strong claims are made. The clinical trial evidence does not match the strength of the claims made. The trial we looked at showed marginal, non clinically significant results after SIX MONTHS of treatment – and the authors state these may be due to placebo or expectation effects. We are safe to conclude that acupuncture has not been proven for this treatment – and indeed, the evidence would suggest quite strongly that it is a waste of time and money.

As for the NHS pages page, it does not say that acupuncture is effective. It says their is “some evidence acupuncture may have a beneficial effect”. Note the emphasis. Then note their very large caveat, “However, because of disagreements over the way acupuncture trials should be carried out and over what their results mean, the existence of some positive evidence does not mean acupuncture definitely works for these conditions.”

You have chosen to ignore this statement and selectively (mis)quote what the page says. You will not admit this or your other errors. I asked if you were intellectually honest enough to do so. And it looks like you are not. You accuse me of only seeing “one side of the coin” whilst blatantly doing this yourself.

And as for acupuncture spending on the NHS? It is only approve by NICE for chronic lower back pain – and that is currently under review. So little for such grand claims.

Thats great that you are slowly learning 🙂

Its sad that you are still misleading the public.. Did you just say that NICE recommends acupuncture only for lower back pain?
Did you forget to mention: chronic tension-type headaches and migraines. (These have been scientifically proven)
According to NICE there are many other applications that Acupuncture “shown some evidence” to be effective “including” neck pain and post-chemotherapy nausea and vomiting.

Do you want to read it again?

“Currently, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) only recommends considering acupuncture as a treatment option for chronic lower back pain, chronic tension-type headaches and migraines. NICE makes these recommendations on the basis of scientific evidence.
There is also some evidence that acupuncture works for a small number of other problems, including neck pain and post-chemotherapy nausea and vomiting.” (NHS – Choices – Acupuncture 2014)

Where is your quote stating that “Acupuncture is no more than a placebo?” Are you using pseudo-science to conclude that?

Andrew – you need to learn the difference between these two statements…

1) There is some evidence…

2) There is sufficient robust evidence to accept that…

There is some evidence that little green men visit us in UFOs.
But it is not good and sufficient evidence to accept they do.

There is some evidence to think that 9/11 was an inside job.
But not good enough evidence to accept that it was instead of it being the work of Islamic extremists – for which there is overwhelming and sufficient robust evidence.

There is some evidence that acupunture works for XXX, but not sufficient good evidence to accept that it does given its extreme implausibility?

Are you getting it yet?

Or Andrew, let me put it another way…

Let’s say you about to do a bungee jump over a 400ft drop. You are the first person to ever do this leap. You ask, how do I know that I will not die?

The owner says, “There is some evidence it may be OK and it will work”.

How do you feel about that?

Would you not prefer,

“We have extensive data from many tests on the rope and supports that we will be operating well within the engineering limits of the system. There are many other systems that work like this one that are very well proven with an extensive safety record. We take this very seriously and are very confident it will work.”

I am jumping with the second crew. How about you?

I see what you are trying to say basically the first group:
“Some evidence of efficacy”

“There is also some evidence that acupuncture works for a small number of other problems, including neck pain and post-chemotherapy nausea and vomiting.” (NHS – Choices – Acupuncture 2014)

Second Group: “Suficient Scientific evidence of Efficacy”

“NICE only recommends considering acupuncture as a treatment option for chronic lower back pain, chronic tension-type headaches and migraines. NICE makes these recommendations on the BASIS OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE” (NHS – Choices – Acupuncture 2014)

I like the Interesting examples that you used trying to distract the readers 🙂

Bare in mind the OA trial mentioned is Conclusive. Your arguments are just non-sense. Acupuncture had a significant clinical results in both Pain and Functional skills test. If you were right and the trial didn’t find RELEVANT clinical results the conclusion would reflect that.

Read the trials and the NICE recommendations again. “You will learn a lot”. 🙂

It is interesting that you think the trials of OA of the knee are conclusive when the authors of that paper came to the exact opposite conclusion to you. As I have pointed out – but you have ignored.

You clearly fail to appreciate that a significant result in a clinical trial is a long, long way from being robust evidence. It is a statistical measure – that is all. Many reason why that could be misleading. I have pointed these things out to you, but you fail to take them on board. I can do no more.

If you have the slightest inkling to learn something, then this is a very accessible introduction as to why you can so easily be fooled by ‘significance’ in a paper.

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=6518

As for the NICE recommendation – all I can say is watch this space – the latest evidence is likely to ensure NICE reverse their recommendation. NICE are also not faultless when it comes to mistaking significance in trials for evidence of effectiveness.

I love you man, even at your worst position in argumentation – you still manage to make me smile 🙂

Firstly: Thanks for admitting that you cannot convince me that the OA “gold standard” trial results could possibly be wrong. (Very few researches reached the rigorous scientific methodology of a research of this magnitude).
This research looked at short and long term results and concluded that Acupuncture is effective for OA.
Are you claiming that the authors concluded something different after a few months? It doesn’t make sense!?!?!? Even if it was the case, it would not change the results and validity of this trial.

Secondly according to the NHS: Homeopathy has not shown to be more than a placebo on any clinical trials, there are only “non-clinical trial researches” that have shown any evidence of this therapy in been more effective than a placebo.

Therefore the NHS can easily state “There is no evidence on the efficacy of homeopathy in treating any disease.” (NHS – Choices – Homeopathy)

– Thirdly: I’m worried about your approach to trying to understand and interpret clinical trials using a website explanation. Wouldn’t it be bette to consult a group of medical professionals specialised in interpreting researches like NICE/NHS?

PS. Are you one of these people that read a book (or website) and pretend to be an expert in the field studied? WOW at least you are entertaining 🙂 keep it up man

Did you look up Dunning-Kruger?

In fact, I am not sure you have read anything I have posted. For example, you ask “Are you claiming that the authors concluded something different after a few months?”

If you had actually read what I have written you would know the answer.

Let me give you a ref to their review paper again.

Ann Intern Med. 2007 Jun 19;146(12):868-77.
Meta-analysis: acupuncture for osteoarthritis of the knee

Now, you have failed to answer any question I have put to you. The sure sign that someone cannot bear their beliefs being tedted.

So again, what would you do if two clinical trials showed different results?

You do not have to answer in detail, just broad approaches would be fine.

Oh and by the way, lots of authors of homeopathy clinical trials claim that their results show homeopathy to be effective.

For example, see http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Homeopathy-the-Evidence-March-2012.pdf

Nonetheless, we can still safely say that no good evidence exists. What is different about acupuncture?

I already answered your questions, and destroyed it. You got Multiple KOs, but you still stand up for more punishment. WOW 🙂

Why don’t you start answering my questions, instead of misleading the public with nonsense?

Are you saying that a meta-analysis made by an individual or small group are more “valid” than, a meta-Analysis conducted by highly respected Institutions (that recommends acupuncture) like: NICE (NHS) and WHO (World Health Organisation)?

NICE and WHO have not published any peer reviewed meta analyses.

If there is any Homeopath here, I would say “I support you and I believe in you. I can’t say that The scientific studies satisfy my critical thinking, however I do believe Homeopathy works for some conditions, however this is based on friends and family experience using it and achieving amazing results 100% of the time from their treatment. PS. If I get ill in the future, I’m gonna use it. I don’t care if its “just water or sugar”, I don’t care if its “just placebo” and I don’t care if the dilution left no “medical active principle” in it – I’m taking it, anywhere anytime.

Your ability to blithely carry on and ignore your own wrongness is first class. I point out your errors and you just charge on.

Anyway. That question I asked you. Are you going to answer?

The only possible answer for your questions is: You are a quack-master 10/10 Canards to you for misleading the public using bad books/websites and ignoring the Government impartial reviews on Acupuncture. 🙂

Your comments are ALL misleading, you need to admit your mistakes and misguidances (home-nerd-boy).

Example: Did you just say that NICE recommends acupuncture only for Low Back Pain?

YOU ARE WRONG: NICE in 2009 only recommended acupuncture for low back pain, after many years of clinical success the current recommendation for 2014 includes not only Low back pain, but also Chronic Tension Type Head Aches and migraines. (NICE also recognise the efficacy of acupuncture for several other conditions, and the list is growing and growing AND GROWING)

Reference:

“Currently, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) only recommends considering acupuncture as a treatment option for chronic lower back pain, chronic tension-type headaches and migraines. NICE makes these recommendations on the basis of scientific evidence.
There is also some evidence that acupuncture works for a small number of other problems, including neck pain and post-chemotherapy nausea and vomiting.”
(NHS – Choices – Acupuncture – 2014)

PS. Please keep your knowledge up-to-date.

From your blustering answer, I will take it that you cannot show any review published by these groups.

Just as you have failed to answer any significant question of mine

Pure bluster.

Busted I think.